| Author |
Message |
    
AJ Cannon
Member
Username: Ajcan
Ga
Registered: 1-2004
Post Number: 740
| | Posted on Saturday, August 05, 2006 - 5:02 pm: | 
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I have a 140 after serial number 30,000 I just picked up not runnung.Found not getting any spark.Installed a new set of breaker points and now fires up and runs.I was happy.It was difficult to start but started non the less.When I went to rev it up it would spit and sputter and then slowly engine speed would increase.I then tried to take off and it then started to spit and sputter again.I have checked,rechecked,triple checked the points gap is correct at .020.Cleaned the points since I did not know how long they had been in the bag though they were new.I can not read the top dead center mark on the fly wheel but I did adjust them when they are open at there greatest point.Any help from the 140/Kohler experts would be greatly appreciated.
AJ |
David Merryfield
Member
Username: Gonetofarm
TX
Registered: 8-2004
Post Number: 89
| | Posted on Saturday, August 05, 2006 - 5:25 pm: |
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AJ
Might try cleaning the carb. See if that helps.JMO
David |
AJ Cannon
Member
Username: Ajcan
Ga
Registered: 1-2004
Post Number: 741
| | Posted on Saturday, August 05, 2006 - 6:08 pm: |
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Thanks David.I figure it needs to be done anyway but the way it backfires and sputters it sounds like an ignition problem.Thought I would get some insight before jumping into the carb though I will need to anyway.
AJ |
Vinnie Hueber
Member
Username: Vinnie110
NY
Registered: 9-2004
Post Number: 155
| | Posted on Saturday, August 05, 2006 - 8:32 pm: |
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I remember reading other posts where Kohlers had this problem. I think reducing the point gap to .018 solved it. |
David Merryfield
Member
Username: Gonetofarm
TX
Registered: 8-2004
Post Number: 91
| | Posted on Saturday, August 05, 2006 - 10:21 pm: |
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AJ
I have to agree with Vinnie's suggestion. I rebuilt a K341 last year and totally forgot mentioning mine had a similar problem with the points set at .020/.022. So I set them down to .012 and worked back up to .016 or so. It would run at wot but engaging the pto would kill the motor. |
Vinnie Hueber
Member
Username: Vinnie110
NY
Registered: 9-2004
Post Number: 156
| | Posted on Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 7:12 am: |
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To continue I pulled out my Kohler K-Series engine manual. According to pages 8.2 & 8.3 you can time these engines with a timing light. You set the timing by adjusting the point gap until the S or SP mark is centered in the sight hole. Page 8.4 also stressed that setting the plug gap correctly is important, Champion H10 gapped at .035. To Quote "Failure to follow these recommendations will result in erratic high speed ignition, misfire or cutting-out under load."
By the way the manual is free for the downloading from the Kohler engines website. |
AJ Cannon
Member
Username: Ajcan
Ga
Registered: 1-2004
Post Number: 743
| | Posted on Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 7:43 am: |
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Thanks David and Vinnie.I will try it later today.As for the timing issue I thought of that as well but can not see the S or SP mark.I have spun it slowly many times to no avail.I thought if worse comes to worse I can remove the engine and remove the back cover on the fly wheel and clean off the rust.I have done points on other 140's before so I know it is there I just can't find it.Thanks again.
AJ |
AJ Cannon
Member
Username: Ajcan
Ga
Registered: 1-2004
Post Number: 746
| | Posted on Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 5:35 pm: |
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Guys,I gave it a try to no avail.First .018 then .016,then .014..014 idled very smooth but as soon as you give it throttle it dies.Any other thoughts?
AJ |
Robert Ring
Member
Username: Bob_r
MI
Registered: 1-2004
Post Number: 57
| | Posted on Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 5:53 pm: |
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Condenser? |
AJ Cannon
Member
Username: Ajcan
Ga
Registered: 1-2004
Post Number: 747
| | Posted on Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 6:13 pm: |
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I did the condensor with the points.Thanks though.I have tunnel vision right now.For some reason I am convinced it is an ignition problem.I hope I am not being too narrow minded.A few years ago when I first got into this hobby I had a similar problem with a 140.I eventually gave up and took it to the dealer only to find bad points,condensor,coil.It would do the exact same thing.I have a new coil I guess I could try that.I just hate throwing parts at a problem.
AJ |
David Merryfield
Member
Username: Gonetofarm
TX
Registered: 8-2004
Post Number: 94
| | Posted on Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 6:19 pm: |
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AJ
Throwing parts at a problem is what you have to do sometimes. The ultimate problem with my K341 was with a voltage regulator causing the coil to overheat. Too much voltage on the down stream side of the regulator. Did it to two different coils. This happened after getting the points set properly. |
AJ Cannon
Member
Username: Ajcan
Ga
Registered: 1-2004
Post Number: 749
| | Posted on Sunday, August 06, 2006 - 7:06 pm: |
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Thanks David.I set it back to .018 and reset the carburetor to factory specs and it runs fine wide open throttle.I was again happy until sparks started shooting from flywheel housing and heard a horrid metal/metal sound.Shut it off and spun it back over and the starter is fried.Go figure.Oh well,I guess I will find another starter and go from there.It did not idle well though.Probably a fuel issue.Thanks for yall's input.I may take the starter off of another 140 I have just as an experiment for now.
AJ |
AJ Cannon
Member
Username: Ajcan
Ga
Registered: 1-2004
Post Number: 759
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 3:50 pm: |
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Thanks Guys for your help thus far.I still am having trouble getting it to full throttle.I soaked the carburetor for 4 days and reassembled it.It idles very smooth.But when I go to accelerate I have to choke it to get to full throttle then let off the choke and it runs well at full throttle.I just can't get to full throttle with out choking it.I have tried the fast idle screw adjustment in several different positions to no avail.Any more thoughts?Thanks for any help.
AJ |
Andy Eder
Member
Username: Andys_212
MN
Registered: 5-2004
Post Number: 158
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 8:44 pm: |
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AJ how about a vacuum leak at the carb to engine flange? I don't know if its the answer but its easy enough to check for. |
AJ Cannon
Member
Username: Ajcan
Ga
Registered: 1-2004
Post Number: 762
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 8:54 pm: |
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Easy enough to check for Andy.When I put the carburetor back on I replaced the gasket but did not even check the base plate which requires a gasket on the back side as well.Thanks for the idea.I will check it.
AJ |
Stan Barnes
Member
Username: Stanb112
CT
Registered: 2-2002
Post Number: 571
| | Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 9:04 pm: |
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Any time you remove a carburetor you should replace the gaskets to avoid air leaks, but normally a leaking gasket or warped flange will mainly affect the engine at idle speeds. How far did you turn the high speed needle valve? The book recommends 1 1/2 turns out as an initial setting but some carbs require as much as three turns out or more. If the engine still stumbles at three turns I'd suspect either a plugged jet or a low float setting. And (please don't be insulted by this) are you sure you're adjusting the correct needle valve? Stan |
AJ Cannon
Member
Username: Ajcan
Ga
Registered: 1-2004
Post Number: 763
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 4:38 am: |
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Stan
I set/adjusted for high speed the top screw that goes directly down which is the longest screw at 1 1/2 turns as per the book and the short screw for idle at 2 turns as per the book.Absolutely no offense taken.Assume nothing.After I soaked the carburetor before reinstalling I blew air through the passages.I did not however check the float level.I did not know that would affect high speed.I am pretty sure I turned it as much as 3 turns.I turned it in both directions to the point of poor running condition.I will go back and look at the float adjustment.If that is not it I have an extra carburetor from old unit just for diagnosis purposes.Thanks for the tips.I will keep ya'll informed.
AJ |
AJ Cannon
Member
Username: Ajcan
Ga
Registered: 1-2004
Post Number: 766
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 6:06 pm: |
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Alright fellas.We are barking up the right tree.I just swapped carburetors with an old one that I had laying around.It now idles fine and revs up fine.So I know the problem is inside the carburetor.Now to tear that apart and find out what is going on there.I just had it apart so I will look at the book and find out the float adjustment and if that is alright then I will try to soak it again and clean out the high speed jet.Thanks for all of your help.I will update and finish this thread when I find out the problem.Thanks again.
AJ |
Stan Barnes
Member
Username: Stanb112
CT
Registered: 2-2002
Post Number: 573
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 8:18 pm: |
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AJ, take out the high speed needle valve and carefully check the tiny holes in it. If you see any that are blocked clean them with a bristle from a toothbrush or something similar. Don't use wire or a drill. Finally, blow into the holes near the tip and feel for air coming out the holes at the other end. Stan |
AJ Cannon
Member
Username: Ajcan
Ga
Registered: 1-2004
Post Number: 769
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 15, 2006 - 8:44 pm: |
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Will do Stan.I did not even realize there were holes in the needle.I was concentrating on the passage way.I will dig into it tomorrow.While on the subject,have you or anyone had luck in replacing the throttle shaft bushing before.The spare I put on there is a spare due to excessive slop in the throttle shaft.Thanks.
AJ |
Stan Barnes
Member
Username: Stanb112
CT
Registered: 2-2002
Post Number: 574
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 7:23 am: |
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AJ, if it's a Kohler/Carter carb there is a throttle repair kit available from Kohler dealers. The repair is simple and doesn't require any special tools. If it's a Walbro carb.... well, I'd throw it away, or sell the tractor and buy one with a Carter carb. Um, maybe that's a little harsh, but none of my Walbros like me and I don't like them! |
AJ Cannon
Member
Username: Ajcan
Ga
Registered: 1-2004
Post Number: 770
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 5:12 pm: |
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Stan
It is indeed a Kohler/Carter carburetor.I have one in mind on ebay not sure if it is what I need or not.I think we have a small engine repair shop near by with the Kohler sign out front.Maybe I will check there.I have the needle in front of me now and only see one hole.I need a magnifying glass.I have been meaning to buy one but keep forgetting.Not sure which is worse losing my sight or my memory.Getting old sucks but it is better than the alternative.
AJ |
Stan Barnes
Member
Username: Stanb112
CT
Registered: 2-2002
Post Number: 575
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 7:22 pm: |
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AJ; Oh yeah, one hole! I've worked on three different carburetors in the past week and can't remember which have the holes in the needles. Also, check the small hole near the bottom end of the center casting, where the bowl attaches. This one can get plugged with debris, but you said you soaked the carb so it should be OK. At this point I'm all out of suggestions. Good luck, Stan |
AJ Cannon
Member
Username: Ajcan
Ga
Registered: 1-2004
Post Number: 773
| | Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 12:02 pm: |
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Well I guess this carburetor will take the mystery to the grave with it.I soaked it again,replaced the needle,adjusted the float though it did not take much.Reinstalled it and still the same problem.I blew through the passages with compressed air and it flowed fine.Only thing I can figure is the seat is damaged which is not replaceable.I have another carburetor I just hate to trash one.I guess I can strip this one down for parts.Thanks to everyone for responding.You all helped me figure out where the problem is even if it can't be repaired.
AJ |
Stan Barnes
Member
Username: Stanb112
CT
Registered: 2-2002
Post Number: 581
| | Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 12:11 pm: |
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AJ, what seat is damaged? I'm curious because if the inlet valve seat or high speed needle seat were damaged they would allow excess fuel to flow. In either case it would give just the opposite symptom of your original condition where you had to add choke to keep the engine running. I still think we're both missing something simple...
Stan |
AJ Cannon
Member
Username: Ajcan
Ga
Registered: 1-2004
Post Number: 774
| | Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 3:06 pm: |
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Maybe Stan.I still have it hooked up.I may tinker with it while I soak the replacement carburetor for a few days.I was talking about the high speed seat but I don't know that I am just reaching for a possible cause.
AJ |
AJ Cannon
Member
Username: Ajcan
Ga
Registered: 1-2004
Post Number: 776
| | Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 6:33 pm: |
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Stan
I went out and played with it a while.I adjusted the fast idle screw in until it ran rough then adjusted out till it ran rough then went in the middle.It will now idle up with out the choke but has a slight hesitation.Sounds like it will need choke to get it to idle up then jumps up without help.So I guess it is fixed.Wish I knew the cause of the hesitation but it is a step in the right direction.
AJ |
Stan Barnes
Member
Username: Stanb112
CT
Registered: 2-2002
Post Number: 583
| | Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 8:26 pm: |
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AJ, the adjustment procedure in the manual says to set the needle between the two positions as you did. But it also says that if the engine hesitates on acceleration to back off (unscrew) the needle a little. The reason for this is that these carbs do not have acceleration pumps and a slight hesitation is normal when going rapidly from a high idle to full throttle. |
AJ Cannon
Member
Username: Ajcan
Ga
Registered: 1-2004
Post Number: 777
| | Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 9:09 pm: |
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Thanks Stan.I will give it a shot tomorrow.
AJ |
Todd D Gerdes
Member
Username: Leisure67
WI
Registered: 7-2005
Post Number: 102
| | Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 5:49 pm: |
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Hey guys,
I have a 140 with a similar problem. This one will run fine for about 15 minutes at idle or at full throttle then it spits, sputters, backfires, & then dies. It will start right back up & run fine for another 15 minutes then does the same thing. I too was convinced that this was a problem with the spark. I replaced points, condenser, plug, coil & it still does the same thing. Does this sound like it may be a carb problem??
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Todd |
AJ Cannon
Member
Username: Ajcan
Ga
Registered: 1-2004
Post Number: 781
| | Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 8:11 pm: |
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Todd
I will let Stan answer but it sounds likely.
I did as you suggested Stan and turned the screw both ways and found the middle ground then turned it counter clock wise a 1/2 turn and took care of most of the hesitation.I am happy except now that I was able to let it run at full throttle while tilling my garden with my new to me 33 tiller it started leaking oil.Looks like from the pan as there is no oil on the sides or front or rear.I cleaned well after running and the oil only leaks under full throttle not at idle.I guess I will have to remove the engine now and find the leak.
AJ |
Stan Barnes
Member
Username: Stanb112
CT
Registered: 2-2002
Post Number: 594
| | Posted on Saturday, August 26, 2006 - 10:22 pm: |
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Todd, I doubt it's a fuel problem. Your symptom sounds similar to Kenny's (Look at "110 sputters under load" in the Gear Drive Tractors forum.) He has a lot of experience with Kohler carbs and was nearly stumped by a similar problem, but he finally found the magneto cutting out and that appears to be the culprit. Since you replaced your coil I'd replace the ignition switch and check the wiring between the switch and the coil.
By the way, did you replace the coil with a Deere or Kohler coil, or one from another source? And does the wire from the points connect to the (-) terminal on the coil?
Finally, two quick checks. When the engine dies immediately remove the spark plug and see if it's wet or dry. Wet means bad ignition, dry means no fuel. And feel the coil, it should be very warm but not so hot that it feels like it would burn your fingers. |
Todd D Gerdes
Member
Username: Leisure67
WI
Registered: 7-2005
Post Number: 103
| | Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 4:23 pm: |
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Stan,
I replaced the coil with one from my other 140. It is a Deere coil & does have the wire from the points connected to the (-) terminal on the coil.
I ran it again this afternoon & noticed that when it died it would not start immediately. After a few seconds I heard a clicking noise kind of like some kind of breaker reseting then it started back up. It sounded like it was coming from the front of the machine by the pto clutch? It does the same quit after 15 minutes whether you are running the pto or not. Is there some kind of breaker that could be bad?
Todd |
Robert Ring
Member
Username: Bob_r
MI
Registered: 1-2004
Post Number: 61
| | Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 4:31 pm: |
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Todd,
Sounds like the exhaust valve is sticking open and the click or snap is the valve snapping closed after it cools some and it will then restart. Typical problem with these single Kohlers. Bob |
Todd D Gerdes
Member
Username: Leisure67
WI
Registered: 7-2005
Post Number: 104
| | Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 4:59 pm: |
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Robert,
Now that you mention that, I thought I could hear a fluttering sound just before it would quit. How would I check for that?
Todd |
Kenny Weimann
Member
Username: Kennyw
CT
Registered: 4-2002
Post Number: 706
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 6:37 am: |
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Hard to see since it "clicks" so soon after it dies. Robert is correct. The 14 hp engines in particular are prone to sticking exhaust valves. I'd take the head off, do a de-carbon, and a valve job, or at least remove the valves, wire wheel the carbon off the stems and faces and re-lap them. It will then run like new. Kenny |
C L Baymee
Member
Username: Baymee
PA
Registered: 11-2005
Post Number: 52
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 9:53 am: |
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I didn't take time to read all the posts, but I know that some of the earlier 14hp Kohlers (1972) did not have the same marks on the wheel as stated. I finally figured it out, but forget how I did it. |
Stan Barnes
Member
Username: Stanb112
CT
Registered: 2-2002
Post Number: 601
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 10:22 am: |
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FYI: For years I've added Marvel Mystery Oil and fuel stabilizer to all my tractor fuel. I've found the MMO lessens the buildup of carbon and keeps it somewhat soft. I suspect this might help prevent sticking valves in 14hp Kohlers. Also I occasionally add a heavy dose of cheap injector cleaner to the fuel to keep things clean. Sure is cheaper than an engine overhaul. |
Todd D Gerdes
Member
Username: Leisure67
WI
Registered: 7-2005
Post Number: 105
| | Posted on Monday, August 28, 2006 - 4:06 pm: |
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Thanks guys,
I guess I'll pull the head of & check the valves out. I'll try to post some pictures throughout the process in hopes of some insight from the experts here.
I truly appreciate the help.
Todd |
Todd D Gerdes
Member
Username: Leisure67
WI
Registered: 7-2005
Post Number: 107
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 7:02 pm: |
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I got pulled the head off. Not a pretty picture. Anyone think this may be the problem? I will have a valve spring compressor tomorrow & will pull the valves out then.
Todd |
Todd D Gerdes
Member
Username: Leisure67
WI
Registered: 7-2005
Post Number: 108
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 7:06 pm: |
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One more question. What is the best way to go about getting the carbon cleaned off the top of the block without getting it all inside the engine? |
Stan Barnes
Member
Username: Stanb112
CT
Registered: 2-2002
Post Number: 608
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 7:59 pm: |
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My suggestion is to turn the engine to lower the piston about 1/2", smear some oil around the top of the cylinder with you finger and bring the piston back to the top. Then either scrape off the carbon with something like a dulled putty knife or (my preference) clean it off with a wire brush in a drill. After you have all the carbon off lower the piston 1/2" again and most of the loose flakes will stick to the oil at the top of the cylinder. Wipe this off and what's left shouldn't hurt the engine.
It appears the head gasket was leaking and I'll bet the head is slightly warped, so be sure to lap the head to make it flat. You can do this by hand in about 10 minutes with a piece of 180 grit sandpaper taped to a perfectly flat surface. Put some oil on the sandpaper and lap the head by moving it in an orbital motion on the sandpaper with some pressure on the head. When all the mating surface is a dull gray it's flat and ready to go. |
AllThingsGreen
Member
Username: Tktrain
IN
Registered: 6-2005
Post Number: 236
| | Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 8:58 am: |
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I've used Permatex gasket remover on carbon with great success, it will dissolve the carbon and it will basically wipe off. It is an aerosol product so be very careful to make sure you only get it on the chamber area, as it will also remove paint. |
Todd D Gerdes
Member
Username: Leisure67
WI
Registered: 7-2005
Post Number: 109
| | Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 4:15 am: |
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I cleaned the carbon off & lapped the head as Stan suggested above. The head was warped. I think it is good now.
Put everything back together & torqued the head according to specs in the tech manual. Adjusted the carb which has issues (the throttle shaft has a lot of slop) & installed a new breather. It ran fine during a few short test runs then for about an hour & a half of easy mowing.
Now I'm hearing noised I don't recall hearing before. It sounds like something rattling near the front of the engine. The engine shrouds seam tight & the muffler looks new. I cant tell if its internal or external? Suggestions??
Todd |
Kenny Weimann
Member
Username: Kennyw
CT
Registered: 4-2002
Post Number: 719
| | Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 7:56 am: |
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Todd,
Look to see if the muffler heat shield that protects the PTO is vibrating against the muffler. I had a 140 with a broken out corner in this shield which only allowed one screw to tighten and it vibrated like crazy. Kenny |
Kenny Weimann
Member
Username: Kennyw
CT
Registered: 4-2002
Post Number: 720
| | Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 8:00 am: |
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Todd,
On JDParts.com, it is listed in the PTO section as detail #10, part number M44098.
Kenny |
Kenny Weimann
Member
Username: Kennyw
CT
Registered: 4-2002
Post Number: 721
| | Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 8:03 am: |
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Another thing I've seen is the muffler outlet tube vibrating against the grill housing. It is a fairly tight fit between the OD of the muffler outlet and the hole in the side of the housing. Kenny |
Todd D Gerdes
Member
Username: Leisure67
WI
Registered: 7-2005
Post Number: 110
| | Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2006 - 4:30 pm: |
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Kenny,
That is the area the sound is the most intense & where I thought the problem may be. Everything looked alright during my initial inspection? I will check it out better tomorrow.
Is there anything internal that may cause a sound like that? I'm starting to get worried that there may be something wrong inside the engine?
Thanks!
Todd |
