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Message |
    
Chuck Weaver
Member
Username: Chuck_weaver
CO
Registered: 5-2009
Post Number: 82
| | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2010 - 6:52 pm: | 
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Back in February, I started another couple of threads about throwing the rod on my 140 engine. It has been at the machinist's for almost 2 months. (I guess he is a procrastinator?) But I've been busy anyway with tearing down the tractor and painting.
He hot tanked it all (cleaned up nicely) bored and honed it .010 oversized, ground the crank .010, surfaced the head, did a valve job and installed new governor parts ($286). I bought the new Kohler parts including gaskets and governor parts from Pat's Small Engine ($344). I got the Mahler piston and rod.
Now I have to put the crankshaft in, fit the rings and piston into the cylinder, tighten down the rod then start adding on everything else (pto, flywheel, carb etc, etc.)
My machinist cleaned the block assembly and shrink wrapped it (as you can see in the photo) but told me to clean the cylinder again very well with acetone. He also said he uses Simple Green and hot water to clean the other parts. How do you all clean up as you are reassembling? I need to clean the bearing plate which has the rear bearing in it. I don't think I should use hot water on that bearing?
Another thing that worries me is torqueing the rod on. It says to do to 260 ft in. I think that is 260 divided by 12 which is 21-2/3 ft lbs, right? That seems like hardly any torque at all.
How do you lubricate parts (piston into cylinder,etc) as you reassemble?
I have never done this before so can use all the advice you guys can give. I keep thinking it will be a miracle if this thing ever works again.
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andy fisher (gotta love a thumper)
Member
Username: 110johndeere
pa
Registered: 2-2008
Post Number: 632
| | Posted on Sunday, May 16, 2010 - 8:03 pm: |
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Hey Chuck
just found this post, i'm sorry i didn't respond sooner
yes, simple green with hot water does a great job, be sure to blow off all the cast parts really well with compressed air after washing as they can flash rust very quickly
as for lubing the parts during reassembly, i use motor oil...... i know there is special oil that can be bought just for the reassembly process but the name of it slips my mind
i agree it can be a daunting task at first with all the pieces laying in front of you but with some time and patience( and a service manual) it will come together.........
IMO it's a great feeling to hear a rebuilt motor run for the first time, especially if it's your first rebuild. i'll never forget my 8hp kohler firing for the first time after a two month rebuild and knowing i was the one that put it together
good luck 
later
andy |
Chuck Weaver
Member
Username: Chuck_weaver
CO
Registered: 5-2009
Post Number: 83
| | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2010 - 6:06 pm: |
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Thanks for the support Andy.
Above I meant to say 260 in. lbs converting to ft. lbs
It seems like sometime I heard you should smear some oil or grease on gaskets before installing them. Does that help or is just installing them dry OK? |
andy fisher (gotta love a thumper)
Member
Username: 110johndeere
pa
Registered: 2-2008
Post Number: 633
| | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2010 - 6:33 pm: |
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Hey Chuck
don't know about the grease or oil on the gaskets, what we use is copper coat...... a few thin coats of it does fine.
as for the torque of the con rod, it won't be much, you have to take it account that the rod and cap are aluminum so the threads will not stand for higher torque values as say a wheel stud.
keep us posted as i'm looking forward to your opinion of a fresh k321 and how it performs for you.
later
andy
EDIT>..... IIRC copper coat can be bought at deere or any auto parts stores..... |
andy fisher (gotta love a thumper)
Member
Username: 110johndeere
pa
Registered: 2-2008
Post Number: 634
| | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2010 - 6:41 pm: |
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almost forgot
yes you have it correct about converting inch pounds to ft lbs.
convert ft lbs to inch lbs= times 12
convert inch lbs to ft lbs= divide by 12 |
Mike Loftus
Member
Username: Mike_l
KY
Registered: 7-2008
Post Number: 121
| | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2010 - 7:26 pm: |
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Andy,
When I rebuilt mine I used clean motor oil as I assembled it. As for the gaskets I also used motor oil. I just dip my fingers in it and spread it around. The rule of thumb I have used for years is, lube the gasket with whatever it is meant to seal. The same with o-rings. The head gasket I installed dry, but put a small amount of oil on the threads. |
Mike Andrews
Member
Username: Big_mike
Michigan
Registered: 7-2006
Post Number: 111
| | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2010 - 8:39 pm: |
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Did the machinist or you chase all the threads?
I wash a ready to assemble motor with hot soapy water and rinse thoroughly then dry and oil the machined surfaces immediately.
I would like to find an inch pound torque wrench but have not found one with the range I think I need.
I use oil on the rings,piston,crank journal and grease on the lifters.
I thought the manual specified fasteners be torqued dry.
If something does not seem right STOP!
It's better to question something during assembley than to have to tear it down again or break something.
The manual is your best friend. |
Richard Heidkamp
Member
Username: Rheidkamp
IL
Registered: 10-2004
Post Number: 166
| | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2010 - 10:14 pm: |
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Chuck,
I use the Kohler manual when I rebuilt my 321. The Kohler manual has a lot more detail on the rebuilding process then the Deere manual does. It is free for download from the Kohler web site. As far as the head bots go Kohler specifies that they be dipped in oil prior to torquing, Also its very important to re-torque your head bolts after the first 15 minutes of run time. I actually re-torque mine a third time after a couple of hours of run time. It is amazing how much the gasket will shrink with the heat. Good luck with your project , it is great to hear them start up when your done. |
Ken Shelby
Member
Username: Thunder_clouds
WA
Registered: 6-2007
Post Number: 117
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2010 - 9:06 am: |
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Chuck, be careful if you use a ft lbs torque wrench. When I was reassembling mine I used a click type craftsman and at that low end of its range it is very hard to feel the click. I broke the stud on my rod and had to order another. |
Chuck Weaver
Member
Username: Chuck_weaver
CO
Registered: 5-2009
Post Number: 84
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2010 - 6:30 pm: |
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How important is crankshaft end clearance really? That is the clearance between the crankshaft shoulder and the bearing ring. I've had a frustrating afternoon trying to get that clearance correct (between 0.003/0.020).
The 1st go around I got the bearing plate screwed down and torqued to spec using 0.03 worth of gaskets. I measured the crank end clearance at the front/PTO end and got .007 so thought that was good until I got to looking at the photo in the Deere manual which showed the measurement at the rear bearing. There was no (zero) clearance there so I took the bearing plate off to add 0.03 more gasket.
The 2nd time I screwed the bearing plate back on I got no (zero) clearance on either end. So I took the bearing plate off again and this time the rear bearing stayed on the crankshaft.
I had to remove the crankshaft from the block to pound the rear bearing off. I inserted the rear bearing back into the bearing plate using a block of wood and a dead blow hammer. I am not sure I got it bottomed out but I could not get it to go farther,
The 3rd time using 0.03 of gaskets again when I got the bearing plate screwed back on I again have no (zero) clearance on both ends.
Everything seems to turn nicely with no friction. What would you do next? The Kohler manual does say "NOTE: Crankshaft end play is especially critical on gear reduction engines." I don't think my 140 is a gear reduction engine. It's hydrostatic, right?
I'm suspecting my problem is one or the other bearing is not bottomed out. I don't have a press and have been using various chunks of wood and a hammer to persuade bearings and seals. |
Richard Heidkamp
Member
Username: Rheidkamp
IL
Registered: 10-2004
Post Number: 168
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2010 - 7:37 pm: |
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Chuck,
While they may show the measurement for end play at the rear bearing the measurement is for total end play. you were within specs the first time you had it together. .007 is more then .003 and less then .020. The change in your readings is almost certainly the bearings not being fully seated. Are the bearing edges evenly spaced compared to the block and bearing plate? Your method of installing can lead to problems. Where are you placing the wood blocks when hitting them?? You need to be around the outside edge of the bearing and not on the center. Striking the bearings in the center can damage the bearings, hitting them with a block around the edge can cock them in the bearing recess. Make sure they are even and all the way in. |
Mike Meyer
Member
Username: 7dad34
Illinois
Registered: 3-2007
Post Number: 550
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2010 - 8:56 pm: |
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I am the Captain of misread torque specs !
Ding ding ding !!!!
Let me know where I pick up my prize please...
I misread my connecting rod specs foot lbs which where really supposed to be inch lbs.
So I ripped the very brand new threads out of the very brand new connecting rods I had just installed.
Luckily I was able to redrill the threads from a 5/16-18 to a 3/8-24
And I'll let you know how that all works but what a gut wrenching pit of your stomach there goes a whole bunch of time and money feeling |
Chuck Weaver
Member
Username: Chuck_weaver
CO
Registered: 5-2009
Post Number: 85
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 19, 2010 - 9:36 am: |
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Richard, I think you are right. One or the other bearing is not seated. I have been striking around the outside edge and attempting to keep the pressure even around the whole bearing. They appear to be evenly seated.
I am glad I did notice the torque was inch lbs not ft lbs. That would have been a painful lesson. |
Chuck Weaver
Member
Username: Chuck_weaver
CO
Registered: 5-2009
Post Number: 86
| | Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2010 - 8:57 am: |
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Got it finally! I took the bearing plate off again, added another gasket and seated both bearing as much as I could and finally came up with 0.013" clearance. I should now be a real expert on removing and installing the bearing plate after 4 go arounds!
Here is a shot of the timing marks, cam on left, crank on right. Did I line them up right?
 |
Chuck Weaver
Member
Username: Chuck_weaver
CO
Registered: 5-2009
Post Number: 87
| | Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2010 - 9:05 am: |
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Next the piston and rod go in. These are Kohler mahle style. Amazing how light weight that piston is.
The Deere manual says "Use a commercial rod aligner to check rod and piston alignment." Any idea what they are talking about?
 |
Richard Heidkamp
Member
Username: Rheidkamp
IL
Registered: 10-2004
Post Number: 170
| | Posted on Friday, May 21, 2010 - 5:21 am: |
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Chuck,
The timing looks good from the pic's. I have not heard of a "rod aligner" before. (though I'm no expert) As I recall though there is a forward and backward when you install the piston and oil dipper. I think it was more the dipper for proper oil distribution. |
DAVID A CALKINS
Member
Username: David_a_calkins
WA
Registered: 10-2008
Post Number: 615
| | Posted on Friday, May 21, 2010 - 6:01 pm: |
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Chuck the aligner that is talked about ,is found in a auto machine shop ,and its not a bad idea to have this done ,forever ,i would think that kohler would have did this ,the rings need to off for this ,and don,t for get to move the rings gaps away from the rist pin ,and 120 degrees apart ,and be sure the oil hole in the rod cap goes toward the cam ..hope this helps .David |
DAVID A CALKINS
Member
Username: David_a_calkins
WA
Registered: 10-2008
Post Number: 616
| | Posted on Friday, May 21, 2010 - 6:06 pm: |
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Chuck ,and as for the end clearance ,i use a dial ,its the only way to be sure ,i set mine at .007 ,and the cam as well ,hope this helps .David |
Chuck Weaver
Member
Username: Chuck_weaver
CO
Registered: 5-2009
Post Number: 88
| | Posted on Friday, May 21, 2010 - 6:41 pm: |
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David,
Your advice always helps because you know what you are talking about.
I went ahead and installed the piston and rod this afternoon without using that aligning tool. For the price I paid I hope Kohler did that before they sold them to me. |
mark mann
Member
Username: Welder
NY
Registered: 8-2009
Post Number: 391
| | Posted on Friday, May 21, 2010 - 8:09 pm: |
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Great thread! I using this to do my 301 !!! Thanx! |
Chuck Weaver
Member
Username: Chuck_weaver
CO
Registered: 5-2009
Post Number: 112
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2010 - 6:35 pm: |
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Been waiting on other restoration items before installing this engine but I'm ready to put it back in.
I have a gasket question. The Kohler set includes a large 7" x 11" gasket - to the right in this photo. Where would it go? There is nothing that big around (or under) this engine that I can see. What am I missing?
 |
Joe Ingels
Member
Username: Lgtjoe
OH
Registered: 9-2003
Post Number: 402
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2010 - 7:25 pm: |
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Chuck,that is an oil pan gasket for the "flanged" type block.I believe you have the non-flanged version from what I can tell.Just hang it up on the wall,you may need it someday...Joe |
Chuck Weaver
Member
Username: Chuck_weaver
CO
Registered: 5-2009
Post Number: 113
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2010 - 12:06 pm: |
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Thanks Joe,
Yes I have a non-flange type pan. I already have the (smaller) oil pan gasket on there. Anyone need a big one? |
KnottyRope
Member
Username: Knottyrope
MA
Registered: 4-2007
Post Number: 567
| | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2010 - 4:12 pm: |
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you just said you had a small one  |
Eric
Member
Username: Raisedbywolves
PA.
Registered: 5-2010
Post Number: 46
| | Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2010 - 5:45 am: |
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Are you guys sure of that .003-.020 end play spec?
.020 seems awfully loose IMO. |
Gaylord Hollingsworth
Member
Username: Gatorh1
on
Registered: 10-2009
Post Number: 83
| | Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2010 - 9:23 am: |
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Eric that is what the Kohler manual says for spec.
Gator |
DAVID A CALKINS
Member
Username: David_a_calkins
WA
Registered: 10-2008
Post Number: 660
| | Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2010 - 1:36 pm: |
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.003 to .020 is right ,i set mine at .010 .along with the cam ,i also use a dial to do this .David |
Chuck Weaver
Member
Username: Chuck_weaver
CO
Registered: 5-2009
Post Number: 115
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2010 - 6:31 pm: |
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I am at the point where I need to put the carb back on. My first thought was that since it was working fine maybe I should leave it be. Then I starting doing a search on "carb rebuilds" and it sounds pretty cheap and easy so maybe I should. Opinions?
From how it looks compared to the pictures in the Kohler Manual, I think I have a Kohler/Carter not a Walbro. The only ID I can find is the tiny number 4747802 cast on the front and on top of the mounting flange is stamped 4705315. Can anyone tell me what I have for sure. Do I just get the rebuild kit for the Kohler carb used on the 321 engine or is it more complicated? |
DAVID A CALKINS
Member
Username: David_a_calkins
WA
Registered: 10-2008
Post Number: 665
| | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2010 - 7:02 pm: |
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Chuck,if you have the carb with two brass scerws ,one on top high speed ,and one to the right at about a 45 degree ,you have the right carb ,its easy to rebuild ,walbro carbs work but not very well ,and most carb kits will work .but you don,t want a no 30 ,its made for the 341 ,thats 16 hp ,but i have seen some on the 14 hp ,if you look in to the in side of the carb you should see a number like 26 or 28 or 30 ,if you have 26 or 28 you have the right one ,and don,t try to remove the main jet ,most will strip the the screw slot ,and the carb will be shot ,just replace the needle and seat ,and gasket and reset the float ,,check the float for leaks ,,you will hear fluid in it if there is a leak ,if not ,install and turn over and besure float is level ,if not bend small arm ,be carfull not to put hole in float ,you also can use a 11/64 drill under float to check for level .hope this helps David |
Chuck Weaver
Member
Username: Chuck_weaver
CO
Registered: 5-2009
Post Number: 117
| | Posted on Sunday, August 01, 2010 - 6:10 pm: |
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I cleaned the carb up and it has the 2 brass screws as you describe David. I cannot find any numbers inside but assume it is the right one for this engine.
I don't hear any fluid in the float but this carb has not had gas in there for almost a year so it would have dried out. Maybe I'll submerge it in water to see if any gets in.
David when you said don't try to remove the main jet, is that the long one from top to bottom? Can I loosen it to help clean it up with solvent? For that matter do you loosen all the screws to help clean out all the little ports.
There is some play in the throttle shaft, not sure how much is OK. Should I replace the bushing for that?
 |
DAVID A CALKINS
Member
Username: David_a_calkins
WA
Registered: 10-2008
Post Number: 668
| | Posted on Monday, August 02, 2010 - 2:43 pm: |
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yes ,you can remove the main jet screw ,but not the seat it sets in . i use small wires to clean out ,the crud and air ,looking into the inlet ,you should see a number,most have it .now i do have on that came from my 341 engine that didn,t .and the bore was the size of a no 30 .be sure you set the needle where the book says ,and adjust to suit when the engine is warmed up to temp ,and one more thing be sure the base of the carb ,is flat ,if not flatten it out with sand paper and a pc of glass or what ever you have thats flat ,hope this helps David |
