| Author |
Message |
    
Art
Member
Username: Art_b
ON
Registered: 5-2010
Post Number: 2
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2010 - 6:31 am: | 
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Hello,
I own a JD 317.
The following happened to me:
1) Cutting grass, the motor & PTO just quit on me
2) I re-started but the PTO would not engage
3) I shut down for a while, re-started & then the PTO worked for about 2 min & then the engine shut down again.
4) Waited one day & retried, & the same thing happened, this time however the engine would barely turn over - the battery was very weak.
5) Waited about 15 minutes & then the engine would start
Please let me know your thoughts.
Thanks alot!
Art |
Tom Ingels
Member
Username: Tommyhawk
Oh
Registered: 9-2003
Post Number: 1840
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2010 - 7:16 am: |
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Welcome to WFM forum, Art. Most likely the electric clutch coil is shorted. If you have a good OHM meter, check the resistance of the coil. The reading should be about 3.5-4.0 OHM's.
To do that, remove grill and left engine side cover, engine cold, all switches turned off, disconnect battery ground. Unplug the wire down near the clutch on the left side. Put one probe on the wire lead from the clutch and the other to a good ground on the engine.
If the reading is way off, the coil is the culprit. If the reading is good, carefully check the wire coming to the clutch for a short to ground. Would be a good idea to check it anyway as it does run in a rather precarious environment.
If the clutch coil or the wiring to it becomes shorted, it will draw so much electrical power to rob the ignition. Then the engine will quit. With a good battery, charging system and ignition system functioning properly, the battery will recover enough to restart after a while. But switching on the clutch again will kill it again.
Let us know what you find. Could be something else, but this is a classic symptom of a shorted coil on a 317.
tommyhawk |
Art
Member
Username: Art_b
ON
Registered: 5-2010
Post Number: 3
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2010 - 9:17 am: |
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Thanks alot Tom
I will let you know what I find.
Art |
Chuck Van Dusen
Member
Username: Chuckv
OR
Registered: 1-2007
Post Number: 3557
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2010 - 11:09 am: |
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Art,
I would also like to welcome you to the WFM forum! You will find lots of folks here that have knowledge about these fine vintage machines and are quite willing to share. I am going to add a bit of additional information here because the 317 that I had some years ago had a replacement engine, and that adds a slight variation to the above trouble shooting steps...
Tom's instructions are quite complete and accurate for your 317 if it still has the Kohler twin. Since a number of 317s have the replacement Onan Performer engines put in them by a Deere dealer when the series I or II Kohler failed under warranty, there is a slight possibility that the engine in your tractor is an Onan, since you did not specify exactly. In that case the PTO winding has a two wire plug, and does not return one side of the coil to engine ground at that point. Simply trace the short harness further to where it plugs in to the single pin of the tractor's original harness and use the instructions above...
Keep us informed on your progress whichever style PTO wiring you find. Also, the circuit breaker may be tripping at less than rated capacity and that will cause the engine and PTO to quit at the same time. Replacing the circuit breaker on a 30 year old tractor is a good preventative maintenance step and not expensive to do. Check the mating plugs on connections that slip over the studs of the circuit breaker for signs of corrosion or heat damage when you replace the breaker itself. The wiring on your 317 is pretty simple and should be easy to trace for any damage as tommyhawk described. Below is the diagram:
Chuck |
Art
Member
Username: Art_b
ON
Registered: 5-2010
Post Number: 4
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2010 - 11:35 am: |
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Thanks Chuck
Much appreciated |
Art
Member
Username: Art_b
ON
Registered: 5-2010
Post Number: 5
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2010 - 11:07 pm: |
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Update:
1) I took the panels off for full access to all the wiring
2) I checked the connections & stripped off all of the black tape around the wires - the wires are still in good condition & showed no signs of a possible short
3) I checked the resistance of the wire going into the PTO - reading: 0.9 - 1.0 ohms
4) I removed the connector at the PTO switch & checked the resistance of the black wire which goes from the PTO switch to the PTO - reading - 0.6 - 1.0 ohms
5) I checked the resistance of the pink wire on the PTO switch & got a reading of 3.5 - 4.0 ohms
6) I replaced the curcuit breaker with a new one.
7) I tried to start the tractor, it turned over once or twice & then the battery died.
8) I also ordered a new solenoid which will be in on Thursday.
Please let know of any other suggestions you may have.
Thanks....Art |
Chuck Van Dusen
Member
Username: Chuckv
OR
Registered: 1-2007
Post Number: 3595
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2010 - 11:32 pm: |
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Art,
The resistance you measured for the PTO when not connected to the harness is around 1 ohm and way too low -- it would draw 12 amps when you turn it on and should also get pretty warm. A "good" PTO will draw only about 3 amps as it should be around 4 ohms. VOLTS divided by OHMS equals AMPS, a basic equation of DC electricity...
You will need to replace your PTO coil if that is an available component part, or the whole thing if no parts are still made for it.
Chuck |
Art
Member
Username: Art_b
ON
Registered: 5-2010
Post Number: 6
| | Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2010 - 6:10 am: |
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Is the PTO coil a difficult part to replace.
Any special tools required etc?
Any tips would be much appreciated.
Thanks!
Art |
Scott Graser
Member
Username: Telescott
Oh
Registered: 11-2008
Post Number: 286
| | Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2010 - 6:18 am: |
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Art,
You may want to check the resistance of the PTO at the plug on the coil to make sure you don't have a shorted wire. The PTO is not hard to change.
Scott |
Art
Member
Username: Art_b
ON
Registered: 5-2010
Post Number: 7
| | Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2010 - 9:09 am: |
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Hi Scott,
The resistance at the plug on the coil (I assume you mean the wire leading to the PTO) measures 0.9 - 1.0 ohms.
Thanks....Art |
Vinnie Hueber
Member
Username: Vinnie110
NY
Registered: 9-2004
Post Number: 1029
| | Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2010 - 8:07 pm: |
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Last time I looked the coil for an Ogura clutch was about $90. |
Scott Graser
Member
Username: Telescott
Oh
Registered: 11-2008
Post Number: 287
| | Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2010 - 8:55 pm: |
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Art,
Sorry, I reread your post and see you stated you had very low resistance at the PTO. There was a post of a member that rewound a PTO coil. If you are handy you could try that, if you are in a hurry buy a used one and rewind yours at a later date.
Scott |
mike cieliesz
Member
Username: Mcieliesz
wi
Registered: 12-2008
Post Number: 60
| | Posted on Friday, June 04, 2010 - 7:45 am: |
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Art, the same thing happened to my 317 last summer. I ended up replacing the PTO, and everything works like a dream now. The only problem is that my wallet is about $300 lighter. Good luck. Mike |
Art
Member
Username: Art_b
ON
Registered: 5-2010
Post Number: 8
| | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2010 - 11:22 am: |
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Update:
1) Installed the new PTO coil & a new battery
2) Cut grass twice - approx 3 hrs each time.
3) Have the same problem again - PTO & tractor shuts down & not enough juice to start.
4) Boosted the tractor from my van (while the van was not running).
5) Tractor started with out a problem
6) Engaged PTO - tractor shut down
Any more ideas?
Thanks....Art |
Chuck Van Dusen
Member
Username: Chuckv
OR
Registered: 1-2007
Post Number: 3659
| | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2010 - 11:53 am: |
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Art,
What does the ammeter read when this happens?
Sounds like there is still a short somewhere... Did you measure the resistance of the new coil now that the failure has started again? Maybe there was some mechanical drag that wore through a conductor after that first pair of mowing sessions...
Chuck |
Harold Goff
Member
Username: Jdalchemist
IA
Registered: 10-2004
Post Number: 698
| | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2010 - 11:54 am: |
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Art,
Everything you have done is logical--there must be multiple problems. Here are a couple more ideas. Having the tractor die as the pto switch is engaged could be due to a bad seat safety switch or a bad pto switch or connector. Often when the pto coil shorts out, the large current draw damages the key switch and/or the connectors on the back of the switch. Pull the connecting plug and look for burns or corrosion. Also, you did presumably gap the pto clutch plates to 0.012-0.014"?
Harold |
Vinnie Hueber
Member
Username: Vinnie110
NY
Registered: 9-2004
Post Number: 1033
| | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2010 - 12:08 pm: |
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Have you checked the charging system. Engine off battery should read 12.5 volts or so, engine on battery should read 13.5 to 14.0 volts if charging system is working. If battery voltage stays at 12.5 volts with engine on charging system is not working and battery will eventually run down dropping out PTO and finally killing the engine. |
Nick Taylor
Member
Username: Nick_taylor
NE
Registered: 4-2008
Post Number: 127
| | Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2010 - 6:40 am: |
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I had a similar problem and my PTO clutch wire (from the switch to the coil) had been rubbing on the PTO shield and was worn through on the back side (where I couldn't see it). Every time I engaged the PTO it grounded the system and killed the engine. I repaired the cable and put some plastic cable guard around it (like you would use on trailer wiring) and no more problems.
Nick |
Art
Member
Username: Art_b
ON
Registered: 5-2010
Post Number: 9
| | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2010 - 5:11 pm: |
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Hi All, Thanks for the responses.
@ Harold, I did set the pto clutch plate gap to the dimensions you recommend - how would the gap affect the electrical system?
@ Vinnie - dumb question, but where is the best best place to check the battery voltage? What does the charging system components consist of?
Thanks alot guys.....Art |
Vinnie Hueber
Member
Username: Vinnie110
NY
Registered: 9-2004
Post Number: 1034
| | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2010 - 6:46 pm: |
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Art, Just measure the voltage at the battery posts, put positive (red) meter lead on + battery post and negative (black) meter on - post. Use a good quality meter, about $20 from Home Depot, read the directions, you are measuring DC (direct current) voltages for this test. Stay away from the Harbor Freight el-cheapo meters.
The main charging system parts are the voltage regulator, little silver box with 3 terminals that is bolted to top of fan shroud, stator coil located behind the flywheel and magnets attached to the inside of the flywheel. |
Art
Member
Username: Art_b
ON
Registered: 5-2010
Post Number: 10
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2010 - 10:38 pm: |
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Hello again,
I was able to solve the problem. It turned out to be a bad ignition switch.
Thanks to everyone for their help!
Art |
