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212 rebuild

Weekend Freedom Machines » The WFM Archives » Restoration Forum - Gear Drive Tractors Archive » 212 rebuild « Previous Next »

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Archive through December 07, 2006Will Atherton48 12-07-06  8:30 am
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Roger Henning
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Username: Woodpecker41
WI
Registered: 3-2002
Post Number: 1073
Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 2:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Will tell them you want one for an old imported car. Most run 1 1/2 to 4 PSI. I usually use an adjustable pressure regulator with mine and set it at 1 1/2 PSI. Roger
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dennis van keirsbilck
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Username: Digger_van
Mo
Registered: 4-2006
Post Number: 20
Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 8:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Think I will go with the electric pump are you getting power from ignition switch?Had odd news from the machine shop today the cylinder bore is plus.003 as marked on block, with not enough taper to measure but the piston also marked .003 is actually standard size at 3.3725, I guess they must have put the .003 + rings on a stock piston.The part number on piston is 235802 and stamped .003 it is the A style piston- old style, is there an advantage to the new style?Parts guy said to run new style requires new rod also, and my rod journal checks and looks great so if there is not much advantage I will stick with old style and bore to 10 over with new piston and rings.Machine shop said if I could find true 3 over piston he could just hone it and would be spec, but I think now 10 over is best.
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John O'Donnell
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Username: Johnod
Il
Registered: 5-2006
Post Number: 200
Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 9:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I found the post I was thinking of. Gary Seely posted this link to jcwhitney

http://tinyurl.com/y6y8lj

You can wire it directly to the ignition switch or the hot side of the headlight switch probably best is to hook up a low current solenoid normally open that will pull in and close the circuit when current is applied by turning on the switch. Either way the current draw is probably the same. I am just guessing on that I haven't actually tested one for current draw.

I would go with a .010" over piston, rings and wrist pin set. I paid 135 bucks but I bought it through Deere. You can probably get it a bit cheaper straight from a Kohler dealer. Stick with genuine Kohler in my opinion.

John O'D
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John O'Donnell
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Username: Johnod
Il
Registered: 5-2006
Post Number: 206
Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 7:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

David Merryfield,

I received the cam you sent me today. Thanks I really appreciate it.
As soon as I can get it installed in the "Knocker" I'll let ya guys know what happens.
Hurt my back last Friday, doc says STAY OUT OF THE SHOP this weekend and let your back rest.

Don't think I can do that but I will take it easy in there.

John O'D
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Will Atherton
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Username: Willin_in_nd
North Dakota 58344
Registered: 7-2005
Post Number: 839
Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 12:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Roger, I figured I saw that on here some time back. As usual, thanks for your help! You always come through when needed. Thanks a lot!

'Nuf said, Will in Lakota
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dennis van keirsbilck
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Username: Digger_van
Mo
Registered: 4-2006
Post Number: 21
Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 7:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My local Deere dealer can no longer get 10 over piston in the old A style piston,but a mower parts supply house has it for 119.00 and is Kohler.My rod checks good so I will stay with old style, but new style piston is cheaper but would need new rod $88.39 piston and $54.37 on rod.If there are parts you have trouble getting you might try AES 913 254-2600 they seem to keep everything in stock and name brand parts, a man there named Bill has been selling parts for years he's a lot of help.I love this site there is a lot of knowledge on here.
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David Merryfield
Member
Username: Gonetofarm
TX
Registered: 8-2004
Post Number: 169
Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 6:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

John:
Great. Hope it helps you figure out the knocking problem.
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dennis van keirsbilck
Member
Username: Digger_van
Mo
Registered: 4-2006
Post Number: 23
Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 6:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ordered parts today went with new style piston and rod since it was only 23.00 more.When I have machine shop bore 10 over is .0025 to tight piston to cylinder? This is what he recomends on an air cooled engine I thought I remember seeing .003 on this site and I'm not finding spec in my manuel.John think I will buy point saver,do you really need the new coil with it?Hope you are getting along better.Thanks Dennis
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John O'Donnell
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Username: Johnod
Il
Registered: 5-2006
Post Number: 217
Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 8:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Factory spec for piston to cylinder clearance in my service manual is .003" at the thrust face.
I doubt .0025 will make that big of a difference.
This isn't NHRA we are talking here.

You don't need the new coil at all. Unless the old one is bad. If it was working ok before it will work fine with the point saver. The best thing about the point saver is the LED on it. You can precisely time the engine with it. All the point saver does is use the points as a switch to trigger a power transistor to brake the coils primary winding voltage, and it does it very fast. So the points just handle a very small current used to control the function of the power transistor.

John O'D

(Message edited by johnod on December 11, 2006)
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dennis van keirsbilck
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Username: Digger_van
Mo
Registered: 4-2006
Post Number: 24
Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 4:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One last question my exhaust valve checks .3085 the spec in my book says 3.3080 must be misprint, the machine shop guys said they would not run it any tighter than it is on a air cooled engine.On this motor without an oil pump can it still bring excessive oil up the stem?If spec sheet should say .3080 then I am in spec on wear tolerance, and valve feels smooth no wear, but is 28 years old would you replace it anyway? Thanks Dennis
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John O'Donnell
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Username: Johnod
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Post Number: 219
Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 5:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My service manual says Exhaust valve stem OD should be .3090 to .3095.
The valve I took out mic'ed at .308 and .3085 as I spun it 90 degrees and took measurements. So it was worn out of round and I replaced it. New valve is .3090 Valve guide was right on at .312. It too was probably out of round but I only have two point small bore gauges so I couldn't tell for sure.
I figured a 'true' new valve would help this situation if this was the case.

I would say if your book says the valve stem should be 3.3080 it is wrong.

John O'D
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Roger Henning
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Username: Woodpecker41
WI
Registered: 3-2002
Post Number: 1083
Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 8:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis I would not have him bore it until he has the piston in his hands. Then have the bore fitted to the piston. Roger
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dennis van keirsbilck
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Username: Digger_van
Mo
Registered: 4-2006
Post Number: 26
Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 3:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Started assembly today found my cam side play was .006 to .011 my block was off like John's don't know if I should go back to machine shop and have it faced.Things were going good untill I put the bearing plate on put the three gaskets on recomended but had next to no end play at PTO side, but had .011 at flywheel side.Is there a measurement for flywheel side?Tried to move crank back and forth some but no luck.Does shimming with gaskets only change PTO side?The crank rotated real nice when together but did'nt have end play on PTO side.When I tried to take bearing plate off to add one more shim it was stuck on tight had to take crank back out to remove bearing plate on the bench, the machine shop polished the crank then put graphite on it and said to leave it on think I will clean off bearing mating surfaces.Hope this makes sense to someone the main thing I guess is wether shimming only changes PTO side? And would you face boss flat?
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John O'Donnell
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Username: Johnod
Il
Registered: 5-2006
Post Number: 228
Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 5:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Looks like Dennis and I were doing the same thing today.
I installed the cam David Merryfield was so kind enough to give me in the knocker today. I wanted to see if a different cam would make a difference. I couldn't tell on the bench so I decided to install the engine in the tractor and take her out for a spin with the deck running. There was defiantly a difference in the knock!!!!!!!
It was louder !!!!!!!!!!!!
So using a different cam did make a difference just not in the direction I wanted it to go.

Dennis I would say go ahead and get that boss machined flat. Then shim it to the spec. I think that is .006" I have tightened that crooked boss up as tight as .001". I set it today at .002" with Davids cam in it. It measured .017 before shimming. I used a .010 and a .005 so I had .002" clearance.
If you machine boss and need some shims I have plenty and could send you some. I have .010" .005" and .001 shims.
That machine shop you are using should have them though.

As far as the crank I just use what the book recommends for spacer gaskets and be done with it.
One thing I do, do is give a whack on the PTO side of the crank with a big'ol rubber mallet after I crank down the bearing plate on the flywheel side. This just centers the crank in the clearance. After you run the engine and it heats up it's going to center anyway from heat expansion. I have never had any issues with the cranks just installing the recommended spacer gaskets.

So as far as the knock I am pretty sure what is causing it and there is no way to fix it other than re machining everything. Like I said before I think it's shotty production quality control way back when and a not so good design of the valve train. I still say it's the cam slapping the block when it transfers loads from lifting the valves. All that load is transfered to the cam which moves laterally on the cam pin due to the crank gear and cam gear being on a bias. That cam pin which is driven into the block on both ends transfers allot of sound and amplifies it.
Does that make sense?

So now I search for another block and transfer the innards from this engine to it and see what happens. Anyone got one (K301) they want to get rid of? I'll have to bore the test block .010" over but no biggie I can do it in my shop so it won't cost me nothing but my time and Deere/shop time is fun time.

John O'D
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dennis van keirsbilck
Member
Username: Digger_van
Mo
Registered: 4-2006
Post Number: 27
Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 6:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

John thanks for post, I think now my trouble was the graphite taking up space because the bearing plate came off easy the first tear-down.I did try to load the crank but could'nt get any movement to flywheel side but with .011 on flywheel side would probably been right on if centered.When my friend was up to look at it he commented on the noise the cam made hitting the block side to side, although mine never knocked. I had an idea but probably would'nt hold up a spring washer not totally tight to act as a shock absorber with the shim.Will see if my friend is busy today he has a good end mill , if he is its back to machine shop monday. Thanks Dennis
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Harold Wick
Member
Username: Hankdkrank
TX
Registered: 10-2003
Post Number: 120
Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 7:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

John - so do you think your knock is due to the cam moving back and forth on the pin while the block flexes? I just got one running and noticed that the cam had noticeably more play around the pin on the gear end. There must be more stress and wear on that end. I sure you have mic'ed the pin; is it the same on both ends? How about ID on the cam (both ends)? Reverse the pin? I don't recall but have you tried setting valve clearance to minimum? Good Luck - I'm sure you'll get it nailed down. HDK
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John O'Donnell
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Username: Johnod
Il
Registered: 5-2006
Post Number: 230
Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 8:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is no reason to put graphite on those surfaces. I wouldn't waste a whole lot of time worrying about those clearances on the crank. It's important you have some clearance for heat expansion but there is noting to wear in those spots. The crank does not move in those ball bearing once you drive the crank in. The outer race of the ball bearing may move in the bearing plate or the block on the PTO side but once it moves the first time you start it up it going to stay in that position. If you have it tight on one side when it heats up the first time it will set itself at that point. After it cools down the bearing will stay in that position from then on and next time it heats up it has made room for expansion the first time it was run. That's why I give it a whack on the PTO side after I drive it in from the bearing plate side. It just takes that tight edge off the PTO side from driving it in.

No spring washer is going to stop that cam travel. My theory is with that boss being machined uneven the oil cannot create an EVEN film. Imagine the connecting rod at the point of ignition on the power stroke. There is a film of oil .001 of an inch between the crank rod journal and the rod big hole. That little bit of oil film will take a tremendous amount of down force when the oil film is consistently spread evenly across the entire journal surface. Now imagine the rod hole being bored crocked. Now you have all that force pushing in just the very end of the rod/crank journal surface and the oil will be displaced to the other side so you are going to hear a knock. What happens when you get too much wear on a crank journal/rod... you get a knock because the oil cannot do it's thing when the clearances are too great. Same thing is happening on the cam end. When a load is placed on it, it is forces it's self side ways due to the gears being on a bias (slant). When it hits the boss on the block the oil film cannot create a protective film with the boss being machined crooked. If those surfaces (the cam end and the machined boss in the block) were exactly parallel you would get the cam end hitting a film of oil at every one of the 360 degrees of that boss (spacer). With it being crooked it is only hitting a film of oil at about 10 to 25% of the surface and all the oil is forced away from the point of impact. I can't figure out how that surface is crooked in the first place the only way I can see to get in there is with a spotface tool attached to an arbor that runs through the camshaft bores. Maybe they had some other rig back then. I don't know.

I haven't actually tried machining that boss, I don't have that kind of equipment. You don't have a knock and you have the crooked boss so my theory doesn't hold much water in your case. Maybe you should leave well enough alone on machining that boss. For some reason I was thinking you had a knocker also.

John O'D
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John O'Donnell
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Username: Johnod
Il
Registered: 5-2006
Post Number: 231
Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 8:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Harold,

Yes, I thinks it the cam ends slapping the block as the load reverses between the valves opening. Like when the cam opens the exhaust valve it immediately opens the intake valve after the exhaust valve closes. This is the point at TDC on the exhaust stroke. For a split second there is no load on the cam after the load of the exhaust stroke. With this load taken off, the cam actually stops for a nanosecond then the crank makes up that .001" gear lash and drives the cam again and the gears being on a bias the cam is driven laterally against the machined boss in the block. With all that metal, the cam the crank the block a small tap will be amplified to a loud knock.

The cam is bored only about 80% of the way through the entire length of its ID to the clearance it needs to ride on the pin. The pin is the same through out it's length. For some reason they bored the gear end bigger. You can actually see this by eye looking down the bore of the cam. This is like this on all the cams I have ever seen for these K engines. All the load is on the area just under the cam lobes but why set up another rig to bore the gear end bigger in production. Beats the hell out of me.

John O'D
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dennis van keirsbilck
Member
Username: Digger_van
Mo
Registered: 4-2006
Post Number: 30
Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 6:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How critical is it that the followers end up on the same cam lobe?Should the followers turn slightly as motor rotates like a car lifter does?I had them in right the first time, but I took the cam back out to check shims, then the phone rang and when I started back I turned the block up and out they came was pretty sure they dropped straight down so thats where I put them back.I have the motor nearly complete but noticed the intake follower does'nt turn while Exhaust twists some when I rotate the motor, also intake valve was loose before I adjusted it making me think followers could be reversed.Both followers turn freely by hand when valves are closed, hope I don't have a problem.
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John O'Donnell
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Username: Johnod
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Registered: 5-2006
Post Number: 236
Posted on Friday, December 22, 2006 - 5:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Theoretically you should keep them in the same position but you won't have any problem since they both have the same OD and the guides have the same ID. In other words they are identical.

The difference would lie in the adjustment of the valve lash. As you know the clearances are difference between the intake and exhaust valve. This would be the way to tell which one went where. MAKE SURE you recheck the tappet clearances just in case you have reversed the lifters.
They will turn with the valves closed because there should be clearances between the valve stem and the lifter.

The only reason the exhaust valve lifter rotates is because of the compression release mechanism. At slow speed like cranking speed the valve is opened slightly to release the compression thus reducing the load on the starter motor. As the lever passes under the valve lifter it rotates it from friction against it and the valve lifter.

John O'D
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Kenny Weimann
Member
Username: Kennyw
CT
Registered: 4-2002
Post Number: 850
Posted on Friday, December 22, 2006 - 7:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Normally both lifters will rotate. The Exhaust due to the off center moment loading by the ACR tab below 600 rpm, and the intake AND exhaust due to the cam lobe face not being 100% parallel to the lifter face, in effect loading the lifter off center causing a rotation. Almost always this cam lobe caused movement will cause a rotation that returns to its original position when the face of the cam goes past centerline. It is nearly impossible for the lifter face and cam lobe to be 100% parallel due to tolerance stackups. And since both are hardened, it generally will not "wear in" to 100 percent contact. My .02. Kenny
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John O'Donnell
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Username: Johnod
Il
Registered: 5-2006
Post Number: 239
Posted on Friday, December 22, 2006 - 10:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree with Kenny but when you rotating the crank by hand like Dennis is doing you usually only see the exhaust valve lifter rotating slightly due to the ACR.
When the engine is running and at a higher RPM both will rotate like Kenny is saying.

John O'D
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dennis van keirsbilck
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Username: Digger_van
Mo
Registered: 4-2006
Post Number: 31
Posted on Friday, December 22, 2006 - 4:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Kenny and John I did'nt try to adjust valves till I already had oil pan on.When I did adjust them I noticed the intake was clearanced to much, and that made me think it might have been the exhaust follower being they refaced the valves and seats when they bored the block I should have been a little tighter not looser if followers were in same position.I learn as I go the next one would be a lot easier, I should have tried the adjustment before putting crank back in, but I was pretty sure they dropped straight down to bench when they fell so thats where I put them back.As you guys say not the best to swap spots but things happen sometimes, and as long as a flat cam is not in my future I'll be happy.Hope to have running by Christmas and see if mine decides to knock now-hope not. Thanks Dennis
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dennis van keirsbilck
Member
Username: Digger_van
Mo
Registered: 4-2006
Post Number: 32
Posted on Monday, December 25, 2006 - 8:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Got tractor all put together yesterday,it turned over real good while I adjusted variator then quit.Today I tried jumping solenoid and it turns over, but if I just turn key to run it shows a big amp discharge it snaps and then circuit breaker kicks out then it does it again.Came home tonight tried it and it turned over fine once then back to cycling circuit breaker.Looked at wiring diagram I know power goes through neutral,& PTO switch of which only PTO switch is hooked up no neutral or seat switch has been hooked up for a long time.You can feel solenoid or circuit breaker snap when key is on run but won't engage starter when turned to start, seems like a short somewhere. Any ideas or good tests to do? Thanks Dennis
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John O'Donnell
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Username: Johnod
Il
Registered: 5-2006
Post Number: 245
Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2006 - 4:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sure sounds like something is shorting to ground to get a big amp draw and then pop the breaker. My first thought was 'Replace the switch' but at this point all you can do is get out the o'l volt meter and start testing an eliminating. Try isolating things from the switch and testing, like the PTO wire. If it doesn't happen then you can be pretty sure it is that circuit. But from the sound of your post things are working well then they are not. Sure signs of a short or a switch gone bad.
So hard to tell without seeing it.

John O'D
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dennis van keirsbilck
Member
Username: Digger_van
Mo
Registered: 4-2006
Post Number: 36
Posted on Thursday, January 04, 2007 - 5:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just thought I would give a report on rebuild,took tractor out on New Years day after installing the point saver, adjusting carb, and govenor, then ran it around the streets for 45 min. it runs great and starts instantly.The tractor has run about 1 hour plus so far and no engine knock as of yet.I had one last thought about why some knock, I used my old fuel pump instead of an electric for now do you think the friction from the pump arm on cam could help to dampen the force of cam slapping block? Just an idea since my block was like John's in the cam to block clearance one side of mine was .006 the other was .011 and I left it that way since the shims in mine were .011 did'nt think a five or a ten thousand shim would help me much anyway, and thats all dealer had.Just a thought thanks all for the help Dennis
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dennis van keirsbilck
Member
Username: Digger_van
Mo
Registered: 4-2006
Post Number: 37
Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 7:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I talked too soon took the tractor out again and ran it for 45min. up a street that is about a 4 to 1 slope made it climb in 4th gear variator all the way forward,and full throttle then I heard some cam rattle - knock.When I pulled the variator back it stopped making noise, really is'nt too loud and only makes noise at idle and under a load,really sounds like a valve rattle on a car out of timing.Do other knockers knock at all RPM's or just certain spots like mine?Now I like John.s theory about a flat surface block to shims and oil taking up the slack equally.Wish this site had sound would like to hear how loud some others are.

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