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Type " A " vs JD " Hy-gard " hydraul...

Weekend Freedom Machines » The WFM Archives » Restoration Forum - Hydrostatic Tractors Archive » Type " A " vs JD " Hy-gard " hydraulic fluid « Previous Next »

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Ken Boerner
Member
Username: Kbs_h3
az
Registered: 12-2008
Post Number: 3
Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 2:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks to my wife and father in law, I have just become the proud owner of a 1970 140 H3 s/n < 30000. While this is a running, functional machine, it needs some attention, thus I have been working taking care of some of the problems that are typical with a nearly 40 year old machine, such as the mower deck, lights, carb, tires, etc and one thing that has posed a problem is locating some of the type "A" hydraulic fluid.
It was suggested that I can top off the level by using the "Hy-gard" fluid that I service my 770 with.
Any input is welcomed.
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Eric Tenney
Member
Username: Jdlg
MN
Registered: 3-2007
Post Number: 1254
Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 2:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't know about Hy-Gard unless it's the red stuff. If it's not you might want to just go to JD and get some Hydro fluid. They should have it on hand.
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Mike Gault
Member
Username: Mike
Mo
Registered: 1-2005
Post Number: 1497
Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 3:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ken - Since this is a new to you 140, I would drain the fluid, install a new filter and use your hy-gard. Nothing works better than good PM. Just my $.02
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Tom Shively
Member
Username: Shivelyt
In
Registered: 11-2004
Post Number: 544
Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 4:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ken,
If the fluid is red and you are topping off, you want type F. Most automotive stores will have it.
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Jerry Ferrell
Member
Username: Swampfox
CO
Registered: 11-2008
Post Number: 139
Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 4:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wouldn't mixed HyGaurd with Type F. I would use one or the other.In fact, if my 322 had type F in it when I got it,and it didn't, I would have flushed it out with HyGaurd and replace it again with JD HyGaurd Low vescosity fluid, what the manual calls for. Just my personal choice.
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Ken Boerner
Member
Username: Kbs_h3
az
Registered: 12-2008
Post Number: 4
Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 9:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eric, Mike, Tom, and Jerry,
Thank you one and all for your input, while I did not post it earlier - on purpose - my JD dealer informed me I could just top it off with the Hy-gard as long as the fluid was in " good shape " ( leaves alot of room for discression )
In checking other web sites, forums, and dealer sources the answers were about a clear as mud, I am glad I found this web site.
I did notice that some replys were in reference to the type " F " fluid, it turns out this is the type of fluid I use in a 1970's era Case / Davis 20+4 trencher, but that is for another forum and post, at any rate I did regress.
We are dealing with the type "A" fluid.
The Hy-gard is a clear to amber colored fluid, no mistaking it for either the type A or F.
I also have the orginal owners manuals that state to use in the transmission a " John Deere type 303 special purpose ( R34690R ) or automatic transmission fluid type " A "
Thanks to you all I will flush out as much of the orginal fluid as I can, also flushing out the implements and switch to the Hy-gard.
Thank you again, looking forward to more conversations with you all as I progress with this machine. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
KB
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Kevin
Member
Username: Khe
MI
Registered: 11-2007
Post Number: 33
Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2008 - 11:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A good auto parts store should be able to get type A fluid. I saw it at a gas station in northern Michigan recently and was surprised as I haven't seen type A in years.
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Hank van Cleef
Member
Username: Hankvc
WY
Registered: 9-2007
Post Number: 200
Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2008 - 12:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A few comments from a guy who did automatic transmissions, primarily in the 1950-70 era.

Type A is the original (1940) Hydra-Matic oil formulation. It was, in some ways, terrible stuff, as it was a vegetable oil/whale oil formulation that would oxidize and turn into a very smelly ropy brown. The original drain/refill service interval was 10,000 miles, using type A.

It was replaced by Dexron in the late 1960's. Dexron is the stuff to use today in all pre-1970's automatics that originally specified type A.

The Ford stuff, type F, is similar to Dexron, but is formulated a bit differently, ostensibly to improve clutch engagement in the Ford C-4/C-6 and later boxes. It is what Deere specifies for Sundstrand-based hydrostatics (318, 420, etc.) and I think the 140 used the same basic Sundstrand internals. Hydrostatic transmissions (used in farm machinery) differ from hydrodynamics (used in automotive applications) in that they don't have multiple-disc clutches and friction bands or hydraulic torque converters, but do have close-fit steel-on-steel pistons and cylinders.

Deere now recommends Low-Viscosity Hy-Guard for the 318/420 with type F as an alternative. Either one is probably a good "one fits all" for the Sundstrand hydrostatics. I'll let the 140 drivers comment.

I'd suggest draining out whatever is in there, and a filter replacement. Refill with the oil that you are going to stock for continued service.

My 1750 hour 318, when I got it in the summer of 2007, had "red stuff" of unknown origin and a replacement filter of unkown age. While it made pressure and drove the tractor properly, there was enough whine to be rather noticeable. I had to R&R several hydraulic tubes to replace one in the steering, so was able to empty most of the hydraulics, along with the transmission. After some local discussion, I decided to purchase a 5-gal. pail of Lo-Vis Hy-Guard and use that in place of the regular Hy-Guard or Type F formulations, along with a new filter. Also replaced the outer O-rings on the relief valves which I had to remove to get them un-stuck. Result is almost no whine at all, along with good operation. Be sure to clean off the relief valve area on the outside, if you are going to R&R them, and make sure you don't let dirt get into the filter area or anything else you are going to open up. Hydrostatics don't tolerate dirt inside the box. It's SOP when doing automotive hydrodynamic boxes to wash the outside before disassembly.

I don't know what is being sold with a type A label on it today, but the original formulation
isn't something I'd expect to find anywhere. Dexron and type F were a huge improvement on type A 40 years ago, and probably still are.

Hank
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ken moore
Member
Username: Catmandoo
ia
Registered: 4-2003
Post Number: 340
Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2008 - 2:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

just a word of caution.if it has type f and is quiet i'd stick with it.i had type f in my 70 140 and all was good.i changed the filter and drained all the old fluid and switched to hy-gard and it whined something fierce.so i switched back to f and all was good.
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Bill Robinson
Member
Username: Jacsam
Va
Registered: 5-2006
Post Number: 758
Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2008 - 5:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hank, while it's not real hard to find Type F, it's more common to find Type F/A it seems. What's the difference in the two, and would Type F/A work?

Bill.
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Eric Tenney
Member
Username: Jdlg
MN
Registered: 3-2007
Post Number: 1266
Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2008 - 5:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bill Type F/A is the same stuff. Don't worry about it. I put a new tube on the sight gauge on the 318 and dumped in Type F/A and it's fine.
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Nathan Husman
Member
Username: 430_boy
Ill
Registered: 12-2008
Post Number: 5
Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2008 - 7:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey guy,

The rule of thumb i use go like this. If the John Deere LGT i am servicing is a 1993 model year or newer i use Hygard or low-vis depending what the book call for. If the tractor is 1992 or older i use the time tested type F "the red stuff". The only exception I make is for 245, 265,285, and 320. I would use low-vis in them.
John Deere did have a product that was call All Weather Transmission Fluid and it was red just like type f. When 415, 425, 445, and 455 came out Deere did away with the "red stuff" and factory filled the new tractor with Low-Vis Hy Gard. Which is SAE 10 made to Deere spec"s. Regular Hy Gard is SAE 30 made to Deere spec's. I am in no way advocating that anyone should substitute SAE 10,or SAE 30 for Low-vis or Hy Gard. Again reader the manual first.
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Will Vandenhaak
Member
Username: Vandenw
ON
Registered: 10-2007
Post Number: 13
Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 9:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I found that what the manufacturer of the transmission and John Deere have different recomendations. I had to replace the clutch on my 445, and downloaded the service manual from the tufftorq web site, it states ATF type F for the transmission. John deere specs Low viscosity Hygard.

On an old 185 I had, John deere recomended engine oil in the transmission. I can't remember the exact type. I checked the Eaton web site for the transmission on the unit and it had a list of oil about a mile long that would work.

When I've asked the service department what to use, I have recieved a lot of different answers.

Based on that, I'm thinking it probably does not really matter what you put in there. Not that I am recommending you use anything, but if you have the wrong stuff, its not going to hurt.

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