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Please allow me to vent...

Weekend Freedom Machines » The WFM Archives » Restoration Forum - Hydrostatic Tractors Archive » Please allow me to vent... « Previous Next »

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Charles Vandenburgh
Member
Username: Needadeere
NY
Registered: 5-2010
Post Number: 1
Posted on Monday, May 17, 2010 - 9:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello everyone. I have been lurking for awhile and found this site to be very informative. The info is wonderful and the advice is top notch.
I can't wait until I can utilize all of it on a project in the near future... I thought I had one BUT...

I found a 1992 318 with low hours which I had hoped to purchase. The seller was a retiree and had a home business building FEL's which he designed. The tractor was in great shape, and I had no qualms about buying it for $1xxx.xx(the high side of that range). He told me that he was interested in "jump-starting" his business and for an extra $500.00 he would include one of his custom loaders for the tractor. At that moment, the wheels started turning and I found myself inventing uses for an FEL.

He promised the tractor and loader would be ready in 5-6 weeks, so I paid the money and went home. This was in January. So far, I have the tractor, but the "custom loader" is still in "design" phase. He hopes to be able to bring it to market in the next 3 months, and until then he doesn't feel comfortable selling me the prototype.

On a hunch, I decided to check the tractor and make sure that everything checked out. according to the local deere dealership, there is no way this is truly a low hour machine. I am naive and have been bitten in the $$.

Long story short, I returned the 318. He was nice enough to take it back for $350 less than I paid, and refunded the $500 for the FEL.

If you are looking for a tractor or loader and live in the upstate/Albany area (or for that matter anywhere in the country) Buyer beware.

Watch out for those "home-built" loaders. It's a headache and I was very fortunate to only loose $350!
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JDF
Member
Username: Swampfox
CO
Registered: 11-2008
Post Number: 1326
Posted on Monday, May 17, 2010 - 9:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You are lucky you got to return the tractor. You were owed the deposit on the FEL. But like you said, buyer beware.
I sold a Harley Sportster to a guy that took it home and started taking it apart to replace some parts with chrome. He then noticed that it had a few scratches in the paint from normal wear and tear,(it was 12 years old), and brings it back to me wanting a full refund. He had the bike for two days and I reluctantly refunded his money but the next buyer signed a "Got What You Bought Agreement". It was a nice cycle and I was totally honest about it's history but some people get Buyer's remorse after buying stuff.
I recently sold a car that I made sure the guy knew, It ain't coming back after you leave the driveway, this is not Wal-Mart and there is no return policy here,LOL.
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Charles Vandenburgh
Member
Username: Needadeere
NY
Registered: 5-2010
Post Number: 2
Posted on Monday, May 17, 2010 - 9:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree. I was very lucky. I wanted to post this story because I have heared about these home-job FEL's on this forum and I want to make sure that everyone checks the merchandise before paying good money that they will never see again.

I saw on this forum some guy in atlanta trying to move a home job loader. I might be interested (I have family in Roswell GA, and don't know how close that is to the Buford Bucket guy) except once bitten twice shy. plus, I need a tractor to go with it. all and all, I think that I will get a tractor and build my own FEL.
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Ben Harper
Member
Username: Ben12
Ga
Registered: 12-2009
Post Number: 26
Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2010 - 7:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Charles; I have a Buford Bucket that I got from George and it's great. As an added bonus, when I got the loader and tractor, I made a good friend who is always ready to help and offer appropriate advice. In my oppinion you won't go wrong with a Buford Bucket or George. Ben
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stan mcfall
Member
Username: Kosmc
ny
Registered: 7-2008
Post Number: 77
Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2010 - 9:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

george helped me make my mini loader all by e-mails...great guy...i did a couple of things just a little different and had to design my own mount but the overall loader came out just like the one's he's making...i love my mini loader!!!
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Eric Heavner
Member
Username: Ericheavner
NC
Registered: 4-2008
Post Number: 259
Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2010 - 9:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Charles, just keep an eye on the classified listings here. I'm sure you'll find exactly what you're looking for and the folks here are great. I have had several transactions with people here that I've never personally met, but they have been totally forthright and honest it's been great. Integrity does still exist in a few small pockets of our world and this is one of those places.
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Charles Vandenburgh
Member
Username: Needadeere
NY
Registered: 5-2010
Post Number: 3
Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2010 - 3:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just out of curiosity, How much is the asking price on the Buford Bucket? Also pardon my ignorance but what is it that you guys mean by "mini loader"?
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stan mcfall
Member
Username: Kosmc
ny
Registered: 7-2008
Post Number: 79
Posted on Wednesday, May 19, 2010 - 9:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i think george is asking around 1400.00 for his mini loaders....what i mean by mini loader is that it mounts on the front and has a lift hight of 3ft

go to the gallery and look at george liskeys page and see his pictures.

he actually has 2 variations...one is called the buford bucket that looks along the lines of the johnny bucket and the other is his "mini loader"
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Tim N.
Member
Username: Tim_jd216
VA
Registered: 8-2004
Post Number: 1219
Posted on Wednesday, May 19, 2010 - 11:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Charles,

You can't go wrong with George, he knows his stuff. Also, he's a long outstanding member of the forums.
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Eric Heavner
Member
Username: Ericheavner
NC
Registered: 4-2008
Post Number: 263
Posted on Wednesday, May 19, 2010 - 11:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Charles, here's a video on youtube showing the Buford Bucket 'mini loader' in action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fUHe7OMmA0
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Timothy Mondero
Member
Username: Mrmondo
KS
Registered: 4-2007
Post Number: 819
Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2010 - 9:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Charles, was wondering what else was wrong with the 318 other than probably not being as low hours as you thought. Because a good running 318 no matter how many hours can go for about 2000.00 or so. I can understand to a point about the guy not wanting to sell yet until he gets the FEL right, that is as long as he was making progress. It was decent of him to take it back though if you were unhappy about the situation.
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Charles Vandenburgh
Member
Username: Needadeere
NY
Registered: 5-2010
Post Number: 4
Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2010 - 2:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tim,

The Tractor had alot of smoke at start up and I was told this was normal, especially considering I was told it hadn't been run in awhile. The dealership did a compression test and said that it was in the mid 70's on each side. That was the basis for them concluding it was longer in the tooth than advertised. It may also have just been run very hard. Either way, I felt with good reason that the seller had either mis-represented what he was selling, or, didn't know what the true condition was.

The seller refused to refund the $500 for the loader unless he got the tractor back. He also refused to refund what I paid for the tractor and considered the $350 a deposit.

The problem with the whole situation is that I was promised the work would be completed in 5-6 weeks, after that time doubled, and there was no noticable progress, I decided that I didn't want loader, but the seller refused to refund that money. All this inspite of the fact that he was the one who couldn't deliver on his product when he said.

I originally paid $1900 for just the tractor, so I was in line with your estimate.
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Charles Vandenburgh
Member
Username: Needadeere
NY
Registered: 5-2010
Post Number: 5
Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2010 - 4:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

After all was said and done, he refunded me a total of $2050. This broke down as $1550 for a tractor I paid $1900 for and then the $500 for the loader. He kept the $350 as a "cost of doing business". Correct me if I am wrong, but there probably isn't a market for a 318 with 70psi compression on both cylinders for $2400 without attachments, is there? I occasionally see them in the $1500-$2000 range, and mostly with a blade or blower along with. I figured my best bet was to recover $2050 of the $2400 and wash my hands of the deal.

Again, I wouldn't have a problem at all if he would have been willing to refund only the $500, and let me keep the tractor, or, if he could produce some sort of evidence that the loader as promised was actually in some stage of completion (even though it had been over 12 weeks instead of 5-6). He couldn't produce either. At that point, I asked him just to sell me his prototype, and he refused that solution as well, then insisted that if I wanted my money back, he wanted the tractor back, minus the $350.

The reason I am upset is because as it stands now, I have no tractor or loader and have spent $350 to get to the same place I was before all this began.

Forgive me if I don't feel as though this seller is decent, the whole thing is anything but. That is why I am a little leary about buying from another "tinkerer".
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Scott Reynolds
Member
Username: Sreynolds
OH
Registered: 9-2007
Post Number: 304
Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2010 - 6:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When you buy from a tinkerer, you have to correct all the problems. Because they won't fix anything correctly. They simply tinker with it.

Ok, I have put my flame suite on............
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Mike Meyer
Member
Username: 7dad34
Illinois
Registered: 3-2007
Post Number: 552
Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2010 - 8:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If nothing else, it looks like that cat found what he was looking for in you.
Me personally, I wouldn't have done the deal but that goes right along with if it sounds to good to be true, it usually isn't.
Next, Please do all of us a favor and go and tell Mr. Shyster that John Deere guys don't do that to one another.. please remove yourself from any other dealings with that brand of tractor and get back to the Murrays you're used to dealing with !
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Mike Fleeger
Member
Username: Dieselrig
pa
Registered: 8-2009
Post Number: 103
Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2010 - 9:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How much is this bucket system? will it fit a 140?
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Tom McManus
Member
Username: Tommytime
IA
Registered: 8-2006
Post Number: 164
Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2010 - 10:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Charles,

I need some money. Can I sell you a product of mine and make you some promises that I won't keep then take the product back when you get disappointed and then charge you for a "cost of doing business" for ever getting involved with me (as if it is somehow your fault for trusting in me)? Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

This guy should realize that if this is how he does business, he won't be in business very long. 14.5% of the sale price? Is that like the re-stocking fee that the retail stores charge?

You should have demanded ALL of your money back! Maybe - and I mean "maybe" - you could have given him a small tip for the use of the tractor for a few weeks??? Just my opinion.
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Jim Briney
Member
Username: Lodogg2221
IN
Registered: 1-2006
Post Number: 4414
Posted on Friday, May 21, 2010 - 7:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Im with Tom. That guy wouldnt still have $350 of my money...

If he couldnt live up to his end of the bargain, then he needs to refund 100% of the money.
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Timothy Mondero
Member
Username: Mrmondo
KS
Registered: 4-2007
Post Number: 820
Posted on Friday, May 21, 2010 - 8:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Charles, I understand now what your saying. The decent thing to do would have been giving all your money back, I mean if he was really going to get in business selling them loaders and doing that you might have come back when or if he was ready to sell them. But since he did as he did he has no chance of you returning. Bad business practice.

Also wondering the mechanics told you that compression was 70psi, what should good compression be on that motor?
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stan mcfall
Member
Username: Kosmc
ny
Registered: 7-2008
Post Number: 80
Posted on Friday, May 21, 2010 - 9:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i know when i was looking for a used onan for my 420 one guy near me said he had one for 700 plus my old engine...i took a compression gauge with me..one side was 100 and the other was 60...needless to say i didnt take that deal..if i hadnt had done that the motor sounded real nice and i might have taken the deal...good thing i check the compression right there in front of him.
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Dean Mink
Member
Username: Dean_mink
WI
Registered: 4-2009
Post Number: 227
Posted on Friday, May 21, 2010 - 9:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The service manual says min. of 75 psi.
My P218 averaged 137 psi and it has a lot of hours
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Charles Vandenburgh
Member
Username: Needadeere
NY
Registered: 5-2010
Post Number: 6
Posted on Friday, May 21, 2010 - 12:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

He considered me to be the bad guy because he claimed that I was backing out on the deal. This is even though he was the one that couldn't deliver HIS product on HIS time-line. I wasn't the one who claimed that I had to have the loader in 5-6 weeks, and even allowed that time to double before I questioned him. When I did question him, he got all sorts of defensive, and even called me names. He did stop short of a direct threat... Barely.

The guy is a jerk. (I am trying to be as polite as possible. For all I know, he may be a member of this forum, and I don't want any slander issues.) I wouldn't do business with him ever again, or recommend his products to anyone. If I ever see his product on E-bay or Craigslist, I will advise those of you on this forum of it. I am not sure that he will ever get his product to the marketplace anyway, but if he does, I will keep you posted.
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mark mann
Member
Username: Welder
NY
Registered: 8-2009
Post Number: 386
Posted on Friday, May 21, 2010 - 1:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

He did not pay you because he probably did not have the rest of the money. Can't give what he does not have.
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mark mann
Member
Username: Welder
NY
Registered: 8-2009
Post Number: 387
Posted on Friday, May 21, 2010 - 1:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One other thing Charles, You made one heck of a entrance to the WFM. he he Welcome to the best place!
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Jim Briney
Member
Username: Lodogg2221
IN
Registered: 1-2006
Post Number: 4416
Posted on Friday, May 21, 2010 - 1:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Charles, I think all of us here would appreciate knowing who it was that did this, or if he uses a business name, thats fine too.

I dont think anyone else needs to be subjected to the same treatment you were, and the only way to avoid that is to let us know who it was.
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Timothy Mondero
Member
Username: Mrmondo
KS
Registered: 4-2007
Post Number: 822
Posted on Friday, May 21, 2010 - 6:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mark you got that right, LOL. Well anyway Charles if you deal with some of the folks on here I am positive you won't have the same issues. Good luck.
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Scott Graser
Member
Username: Telescott
Oh
Registered: 11-2008
Post Number: 259
Posted on Friday, May 21, 2010 - 8:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Charles nothing against you so please donít get me wrong.

I wish we could hear the other side of the story. What I donít understand is why he wouldnít just return your deposit on the FEL. I think you are lucky that he returned the amount he did. I for one would never allow the return of something I sold as I would have no way of knowing if the item was abused while in the buyer hands.

If I read your first post right, it looks like you had the tractor for 3 months (12 weeks or so) that works out to about $30 a week. If you used the tractor during that time then returned it, I donít see a problem with the amount he deducted.

Charles, I would also like to welcome you to the forum.

Scott
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Jay Dorsett
Member
Username: Hogedog
sd
Registered: 11-2006
Post Number: 571
Posted on Friday, May 21, 2010 - 11:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Those three months were spent waiting for the delivery of the loader he never finished. How is that the purchasers fault? He should have returned all your money, and I bet Mark is right about him not having it to give back, probably a bunch of loader materials were bought with it. That's why he wouldn't let you off the hook for the loader without getting the tractor back...he has a partially built loader for it.
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Jim Briney
Member
Username: Lodogg2221
IN
Registered: 1-2006
Post Number: 4421
Posted on Friday, May 21, 2010 - 11:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Scott, you would promise something to someone, then not deliver, then not return their money for that?
Thats not even close to the right thing to do.

The guy promised a part in a certain time. Almost 3 times that amount of time went by, and still no part. And he seemingly misled the buyer on another item.

The buyer should have gotten all his money back. Not one single part is his fault, except for choosing to take a chance in the first place.

As far as the use, well, if you cant do what you say you are going to do, thats the price you as the seller pay for misleading and not delivering as promised.
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Scott Graser
Member
Username: Telescott
Oh
Registered: 11-2008
Post Number: 260
Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 5:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jim, No I would have paid the deposit back for the loader no question. If I read the first post right that was requested from the start. Like I said I wish we could hear both sides of the story. It is possible the seller was also misled on the hours (hour meters can be changed).

I would never rip someone off but most that sell items sell them as is and wont take it back.

I am not trying to blame Charles in any way.

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