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K341 balance gears

Weekend Freedom Machines » The WFM Archives » Restoration Forum - Hydrostatic Tractors Archive » K341 balance gears « Previous Next »

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Don Taylor
Member
Username: Alberta300
AB
Registered: 1-2006
Post Number: 1
Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 8:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am in the process of rebuilding a K341. I have read where many guys just discard them when rebuilding the engine. I discussed this with a local small engine rebuilder who says he always re-installs them. His logic is that the crank shaft counter weights are of less mass on a balance gear engine compared to a factory non balance gear engine. Not re-installing the balance gears will result in not only more vibration but less torque. Personally I can`t see how the balance gears effect torque, but I can understand how counter weight mass would. I am really undecided if I should re-install them or is it just more trouble than its worth?
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Francis Kozlovsky Sr.
Member
Username: Trainstractors
WI
Registered: 3-2002
Post Number: 505
Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 9:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don If you reinstall the balance gear be sure all tolerances are correct and being held.
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HERMAN WOOD
Member
Username: Old_dog_140
AR
Registered: 11-2004
Post Number: 57
Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 10:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DON I HAVE BOTH WITH BALANCE GEAR AND WITHOUT FRANKLY I CANT TELL THE DIFFERENCE. I DO KNOW IF EVERYTHING IS NOT JUST RIGHT WITH THE GEARS SUCH AS BAD BEARINGS ETC. THEY WILL MAKE A MESS OUT OF THE BLOCK IF THEY COME LOOSE( SPEAKING FROM EXPERIENCE). I PERSONALY WOULD NOT PUT THEM IN .JUST MY 2-CENTS
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Stephen A. Stepanian
Member
Username: Darmahsd
NY
Registered: 9-2005
Post Number: 73
Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 3:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don, It might be worth having your crank sent out to Kirk Engines were he adds an extra counterweight on it to compensate for balancer removal. Lots of pullers that modify their big K series Kohlers do this. > http://www.kirkengines.com/ <
Scroll to the bottom to read about the crank modification. Good luck.
Stephen
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Kent "I have a bar tire fetish" Ortman
Moderator
Username: Kkortman112
IN
Registered: 1-2002
Post Number: 1975
Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 5:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Don. From what I have gathered, it one replaces the bearings and the stub shafts then running the balance gears should not be a problem. My 140 still has them in it and has who knows how many hours on it, and whenever I get around to overhauling it, it will keep it's gears (but with the aforementioned parts replaced). Yes, it'll cost me more at overhaul time to do it "right", but I want to keep them in there. I know that this puts me in the minority, but that is my opinion on them.

Kent
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Todd Gillfillan
Member
Username: Deereboy
OH
Registered: 12-2003
Post Number: 47
Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 5:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am in about the same place as Don on my K341, but the balance gears have too much end play on them. My top one has about .056" and the bottom has about .030" play. According to my manual, I only want .005 to .010 play. I've checked JDParts for part numbers for the spacers, but can't seem to find them for the K341, only the K321. Are they the same ones? If not, does anyone have the correct part numbers?
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David Merryfield
Member
Username: Gonetofarm
TX
Registered: 8-2004
Post Number: 32
Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 6:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My K341 doesnt know the difference with or without. These single cylinders are real thumpers period. If you want to simplify a rebuild dont put them back in. After the rod let loose on mine and seeing the trash those gears pick up decided would not put those little grenades back in there. My current project tractor (316) has a broken rod and if the gears are in there are going to the scrap heap immediately.
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Kenny Weimann
Member
Username: Kennyw
CT
Registered: 4-2002
Post Number: 512
Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 6:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Todd,
Email me your address and I'll send you some, I have about 12 sets from rebuilds I've done just laying around. Kenny
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Don Taylor
Member
Username: Alberta300
AB
Registered: 1-2006
Post Number: 2
Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 8:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for all the great info. I think I will keep them, it has run 29 years with them. I'll install new bearings and stub shafts, any tricks to removing / installing the shafts?
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Will Atherton
Member
Username: Willin_in_nd
North Dakota 58344
Registered: 7-2005
Post Number: 398
Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 2:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kent and Don, I'm with you guys! If the balance gears are in there when I overhaul an engine, they'll sure be back in there when I put it back together! They are in there for a reason, so they'll stay in there. Unless Brian Miller balances my crankshafts for me--that's the name of that tune!

Nuff said, Will in Lakota
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Dan Maynard
Member
Username: Dmaynard1
IA
Registered: 3-2002
Post Number: 75
Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 3:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My 2 cents worth is leave them out. Having said that, when you do put them back in, read the instructions in the repair manual. When you are done read it again! You might also get one of those nifty little timing tools. They do have to be timed.The pins drive out like dowels and put back in the same way. Also make sure the snap rings are put on the correct way and that they are new.. Any old snap ring won't work.
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Mark Deihl
Member
Username: Sparky3338
IN
Registered: 3-2005
Post Number: 10
Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 5:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don,

Not only did I have mine removed with no problems, but I checked the 300/316 parts book and it shows the same part number for the crank used with or without the balance gears so that would tend to suggest that it probably really doesn't matter. I have heard of guys having Kirk Engines add counter weights to the cranks of their K341's but those guys are also turning 7000+ rpms too... and at those speeds it does make a difference. Good luck.
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Steve Meyer
Member
Username: Smeyer56
MN
Registered: 8-2004
Post Number: 104
Posted on Friday, April 07, 2006 - 11:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To all who do not use the balance gears, do you remove the stub shafts or keep them. If you remove them, what do you put in their place and where would someone get these pieces.
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HERMAN WOOD
Member
Username: Old_dog_140
AR
Registered: 11-2004
Post Number: 64
Posted on Friday, April 07, 2006 - 12:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hey steve i just leave them in place the stub shafts dont cause a problem its the gears and bearings that cause the problem
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Steve Meyer
Member
Username: Smeyer56
MN
Registered: 8-2004
Post Number: 105
Posted on Friday, April 07, 2006 - 1:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Herman
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David Merryfield
Member
Username: Gonetofarm
TX
Registered: 8-2004
Post Number: 36
Posted on Friday, April 07, 2006 - 8:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don:
FWIW: Last year at this time I rebuilt a K341 in my Ford LGT165. It had the gears. Since it is about time to look into rebuilding the K341 on my 1978 JD316 I dropped the pan on it today because I had determined it had a broken rod and discovered it did not have the balance gears or the stub shafts. This particular motor never was drilled for the stub shafts either. The main difference between these two motors is how they are mounted in the respective tractors. Interestingly in the Ford the motor is mounted solid, where the JD as most of us know has a cradle on each side of the motor connected to motor mounts. Another member here on WFM, Norm Beaudet is restoring the same model of tractor as I am and his has the balance gears, so its my guess JD used whatever was on hand from Kohler.
But that would just be my ignorant guess.
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Kent "I have a bar tire fetish" Ortman
Moderator
Username: Kkortman112
IN
Registered: 1-2002
Post Number: 2004
Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 8:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi David. Although these tractors are old enough to have had quite a few parts changed on them, the very first production 316 Kohler tractors (serial numbers 80,001 to 80,048) were like the model 300 and had the balance gears in them. I helped Brandon P. write the 316 Kohler article that was in the Jan/Feb issue of LGT News so that is why this info is still fresh in my mind. We believe Kohler offered the engines either way, but the ones with the balance gears would naturally have cost more to purchase. Since JD started using rubber engine mounts when the model 300 came out, it is somewhat redundant to have both. Our thinking was that JD then just went with the cheaper to buy, non-balance gear engine. As a side note, I have seen engines with these gears, engines w/o these gears and engines w/o the gears, but with the bosses cast in to carry the stub shafts for the gears (but with what looks like freeze plugs blocking the holes off).

Kent
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Keith Allen
Member
Username: Keith_a
Indiana
Registered: 6-2005
Post Number: 328
Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 8:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kent,
you bring up the advent of the rubber engine mounts, I have a question. On a 140 h3 , would it be worth the time , to install rubber type washers under the engine, to decrease any vibration ???

Keith
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HERMAN WOOD
Member
Username: Old_dog_140
AR
Registered: 11-2004
Post Number: 66
Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 10:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

keith i have to put my 02 in here i have a 300 that i keep my tiller and front blade on i have owned this tr for about 15 years it has been very dependable. but i still dont like the rubber mounts they let the engine bounce all over the place on start up you think its going to jump right out of the thing. just to cut to the chase i would not put any thing between the frame and the engine. i also own 3 140 trs. i think they have less vibration than the ones with rubber mounts ( by the way 1 has balance gears 2 dont) thats my opinion.
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Kent "I have a bar tire fetish" Ortman
Moderator
Username: Kkortman112
IN
Registered: 1-2002
Post Number: 2005
Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 12:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Keith. I agree with Herman and wouldn't do that to your 140. My 140 is fairly smooth (although it does still have the balance gears in the engine). I don't think rubber washers would even really do much, as they would be compressed down fairly hard by the time you torqued the mounting bolts down, so they wouldn't really be doing much other than spacing the engine up higher in the chassis.

Kent
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David Merryfield
Member
Username: Gonetofarm
TX
Registered: 8-2004
Post Number: 37
Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 5:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kent:
Thanks for sharing what you found on balance gears. Sure would like to read that article you
assisted with. I just came back in from further
tear down on my 341. The piston is marked "STD". Valve seats appear in good condition. PTO appears to be good condition. Lots of "JD" fasteners everywhere. When removed the threads are clean and appear as if were just bought yesterday. The hex heads are a bit rusty but that can be corrected. This machine has sat for over 10 years that I know of and I figure its been sitting a LOT longer than that. Since I have not posted pics here yet will forego that for the moment when I have more time.

I would have thought you would have made Plow Day? Nice balmy 81 deg here in North Central Texas today.
Thanks
David
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Neil Terry
Member
Username: Terryna
IL
Registered: 11-2002
Post Number: 84
Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 7:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

RE: Removing / Installing Stub shafts and balance gears

When I rebuilt a K241 a couple years back, I wrestled with keeping or tossing the balance gears. Anyway, I decided to keep them, thought I'd comment about removing and installing the stub shafts:

First, the shafts press out from the outside of the engine block. I was real worried about cracking the engine block because there isn't much stiffness parallel to the crankshaft.

What I ended up doing was buying a 6" length 1/2" black iron pipe nipple to brace against the inside of the boss where the stub shaft is pressed into. I cut the pipe just a little bit longer than the bearing plate mounting surface. When I applied the pressure with the press, the pressure was picked up by the pipe, instead of deflecting the block.

I also bought one of those timing tools. It worked well, but I think you could make one out of wood pretty easily. I'd be glad to take some measurements if that helps anyone.
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Kent "I have a bar tire fetish" Ortman
Moderator
Username: Kkortman112
IN
Registered: 1-2002
Post Number: 2007
Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 9:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi David. I would have liked to went to Iowa, but with my wife working every other weekend (and this being one of them), that nixed that idea. Besides, the 454 in my truck isn't exactly the nicest thing to take on a trip that far (get tired of feeding it). Right now it is looking like my trip to Springfield, Ohio for the Eastern Two-Cylinder show in June and possibly the fall Cub plow day in IL in October will be my main "tractor trips" for this year.

Neil- Thanks for the info!

Kent
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Neil Terry
Member
Username: Terryna
IL
Registered: 11-2002
Post Number: 85
Posted on Saturday, April 08, 2006 - 9:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's a shot I saved of the balance gear tool in action:

gears

The yellow arrow points to the "bump" cast into the gears. The bump is aligned with the tool for both gears, then the crankshaft is dropped into place.
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Don Taylor
Member
Username: Alberta300
AB
Registered: 1-2006
Post Number: 3
Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 12:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Neil, Great picture, what camera did you use? I tried to buy a balance gear tool from a local Kohler dealer but they could not locate any (Canada) If you could take the measurements on yours I will try to make one. I have all the work done and parts to rebuild the engine now,Block bored 10 over, new piston,rod,crank bearings stub shafts and bearings,governor gear and a cam pin. I recently broke my leg so its been a while since I ventured down the basement to work on the motor, But the grass is growing like hell now so I better get it done.
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Neil Terry
Member
Username: Terryna
IL
Registered: 11-2002
Post Number: 90
Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 9:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry Don, I didn't realize there was another post, as the thread had gotten old and I forgot to check back.

Do you still need the measurements?

I'll post some here this weekend for completeness.

Neil
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Neil Terry
Member
Username: Terryna
IL
Registered: 11-2002
Post Number: 91
Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 6:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think the general consensus of this forum is to trash the balance gears, but just in case here are some pictures of the tool:

v1

v2
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Don Taylor
Member
Username: Alberta300
AB
Registered: 1-2006
Post Number: 4
Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 10:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the measurements Neil, I have'nt had time to get to the motor lately, so I broke down and bought a new 23hp 130. The 130 cuts the grass well and thats all it will ever be used for. But there is no comparison to the old 300. So I decided when the motor on the 300 is finished I will repaint it and keep it for the real work.I told the wife the 130 is hers and 300 is mine! You just can't beat the quality of the old JD's. I also have a 317 that I intend to repower as a project for next winter. When the 317 is completed I think the 130 will be looking for a new home.

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